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Ow
 
ow
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I've said it before, but I have to say it again in light of the new spoilers. . . the howrse economy is gonna get so messed up
celtic queen
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Out of personal interest, I decided to calculate how much the INT server would have to pay in taxes to unlock the piggy bank. (I hope this doesn't have to be under the spoiler banner as it has already been hinted at).

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Note that the equivalences below could easily change between the live and test servers, so it is only an approximation.

Also, some notation: when I say "passes" or use the letter "p", I mean the new passes. Also, "e" stands for equus, and "r" stands for the red coin symbol which seems to be used on the piggy bank page to convert between passes/equus.

1. I bought a horse for 10p in sales, which donates 1p to the piggy bank. This gave a rise of 2r in the piggy bank. So I used the equation 1p = 2r
2. Using the same method, I bought a horse for 1.5 million equus in sales, which donates 150k equus to the piggy bank. This gave a rise of 300r in the piggy bank, so I equate 150,000e = 300r (simplifies to 500e = 1r).

The total amount of "red coins" needed to break the piggy bank: 873,967r.

Using the equations above, this equates to 436,983.5 passes, or 436,983,500 equus.

However, this is only in taxes, so really the community would have to spend about 4.4 million passes or 4.4 billion equus.

Also, both passes and equus contribute to the red coin, so it could be any combination of these amounts. E.g. another way to reach the goal could be donating 100k passes and ~330 million equus in taxes.

paintapicture
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Re offers for the current promo:

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I know on preprod they had cakes in the TC? Did that happen both weekends? Or just the last? Just wondering if it's likely to happen tomorrow. Thanks!
rowangreen
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@donkeyshot's post here
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I have the idea that some players still think the tax % [10 percent of ALL horse sales] or a tax "ceiling" [no taxation after paying in xxx amount to the comunity piggybank] or a variable tax % for differnt low / high sales is on the table. It's not. The 10% tax on EVERY SALE is what you are getting. You can't just fill it in the way you like. Like REAL TAXES you either stand up against them being rolled out OR you make your bed with them. They proposed a flat-out no-ceiling no-perks tax rate and that is what we will be getting. Now those allowed on preprod to test this out come up with lovely new ways to make it "not so bad" but what you hope or think [now] won't change the reality of a flat rate 10% no-cap no perks tax.

It's not meant to spoil us later with equus or discount instore, it's meant to drain passes [and in a lesser degree equus] from the game. It's about increasing Howrses profit margin. It's not about making players happy. It's not about making the game "more fair' & it's certainly not to help the community out. As any real way thecommunity has come upwith over the years to help new / starting / struggling players has been ruled cheating or [pass] trafficing.

Soo... if you are in the habit of buying / selling horses for passes: Now every pass sale "buy 10 and get 10 free" [which will of course be AFTER UPDATE buy 1.000 get 1.000 free] will end you up with 18 pases spending power [or NEW 1.800 passes]. I don't know, I have never fallen for cheaters ingame, but it sure feels like I will be cheated out of 10% of my payed for passes after this comes through. So no, sorry, even without having tested it I am savvy enough with REAL taxes to not take to his.


Completely understood and agreed.

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10% was the highest amount people were estimating in the ambassador's thread, and of course we get the worst case scenario. No way people should just sit tight and allow these changes to roll in without protest. Many of us find it hard enough to make money as it is, and now Howrse wants to take 1 out of my 10 passes, 100,000e of my 1,000,000.
doodlebug
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About the
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divine dust, does that go for divine horses only or for the legendary Tack too?
lina575
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woah I missed so much lol! could someone explain to me what divine dust is?
honeyday
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doodlebug wrote:

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10% was the highest amount people were estimating in the ambassador's thread, and of course we get the worst case scenario. No way people should just sit tight and allow these changes to roll in without protest. Many of us find it hard enough to make money as it is, and now Howrse wants to take 1 out of my 10 passes, 100,000e of my 1,000,000.


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I personally do not mind the sales tax. Losing a little bit of equus towards the community pot will seem like the Great Challenge to me. Lose a little to gain a reward at the end. Don't get me wrong, I definitely do not agree with 10%, or the fact that passes will be included in sales tax. It should be more like 5-7%, equus only, in my opinion. Passes are way to valuable to lose at a 10% tax, or really any tax. Equus, I can handle with a 5% tax. If it ends up being 10%, I will probably be broke most of the time. default smiley (lol) I don't make that much as it is.

The last thing I do not agree with as far as horse sales go, is the fact that we will no longer have the ability to sell horses for a mixture of passes and equus. It will be JUST passes or JUST equus. I like mixing my sales sometimes. Especially when a player is negotiating a price for one of my horses. What if they cannot afford a horse for, let's say, 10 passes, but I am willing to accept some equus in place of some of the passes? Which, by the way, how will negotiable sales work when this change is put in place? There won't really be a purpose or much use for it anymore.

Anyway, the thing that gets me is that Howrse says this change is to "stop cheating". This will not stop cheating. Cheaters will work around it, they always will no matter what improvements are made, there will always be a loophole. It's just the way things are.default smiley :) Just do the best you can, without making it harder for loyal players. default smiley :) All of the other changes sound great! I am excited to see how they turn out once they are added.
~jade~
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I would imagine that these "community pot" will be nowhere worth what big spenders pay into the bank. If its BM items or regular horses as rewards for the promos that come from the pot, I'd be annoyed. A lot of prizes that are offered towards the lower end of promos (Plouto's Parchment, Apollo's Lyre, food, EC items, etc) are nearly worthless to me, I'd rather just buy them myself. And thinking of them taxing passes just, ugh. Like they're not already expensive. If it was donation based, sure, that's fine, but taxing players in a way that isn't directly beneficial to the site (aka real money) is ridiculous.

And their whole "it's to stop cheating!" thing is junk. If they didn't restrict things so tightly for us, it wouldn't be considered cheating! What other game stops players from exchanging things that exist in game? Who's the genius that prevents a free market?
frankenstein
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Ok so I have two questions.

1.
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So is Howrse changing the pass horses now?

2.
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What is the next Chimera horse is anyone knows?


Thank you. default smiley :-))
gabbigirl1
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I just had the thought
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how will Themis' Scales work with this new version of passes and BMI costs? Some things will be priced different, I dont know if theres going to be 100-150-200-etc types of prices or if we could get 100-125-150-etc types of prices.
With that, you might want to trade a 250 pass BMI. But that makes it harder to get multiple of a cheaper item. You can't get 2.5 of a 100 pas BMI so you're only stuck with... a 250 pass item? Two 125 pass items?
I can't understand or see how the Scales can work well with this development. But I'd love to know if there is a way that's been talked about before that I haven't seen.
louislegend
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Sorry if this has been said already but I couldn't find it.
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Do we know what wild horse is a prize in the cards promo?
risxx
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Risxx wrote:

Sorry if this has been said already but I couldn't find it.
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Do we know what wild horse is a prize in the cards promo?


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It is the Tiger Chimera.
rogin
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~Jade~ wrote:

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I personally do not mind the sales tax. Losing a little bit of equus towards the community pot will seem like the Great Challenge to me. Lose a little to gain a reward at the end. Don't get me wrong, I definitely do not agree with 10%, or the fact that passes will be included in sales tax. It should be more like 5-7%, equus only, in my opinion. Passes are way to valuable to lose at a 10% tax, or really any tax. Equus, I can handle with a 5% tax. If it ends up being 10%, I will probably be broke most of the time. default smiley default smiley (lol) I don't make that much as it is.

The last thing I do not agree with as far as horse sales go, is the fact that we will no longer have the ability to sell horses for a mixture of passes and equus. It will be JUST passes or JUST equus. I like mixing my sales sometimes. Especially when a player is negotiating a price for one of my horses. What if they cannot afford a horse for, let's say, 10 passes, but I am willing to accept some equus in place of some of the passes? Which, by the way, how will negotiable sales work when this change is put in place? There won't really be a purpose or much use for it anymore.

Anyway, the thing that gets me is that Howrse says this change is to "stop cheating". This will not stop cheating. Cheaters will work around it, they always will no matter what improvements are made, there will always be a loophole. It's just the way things are.default smiley default smiley :) Just do the best you can, without making it harder for loyal players. default smiley default smiley :) All of the other changes sound great! I am excited to see how they turn out once they are added.


I agree with most of this, but one big problem is

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Losing some to gain some is nice but you don't gain the same amount you lose. The only BMIs I ever need buy in the black market are golden apples and very very occasionally a luck item when there's a promotion. Okay cool, I've paid who knows how much in taxes now because I'm a regular buyer/seller, but the only BMIs on sale are things I don't need? Or if all are on sale, I still have to /pay/ to get them. If you think about it, we've probably already paid for those items' costs in the amount of taxes we give, but we have to pay /again/ to actually obtain them. Many of us might not even have enough equus to buy more than one or two items. I think many will be losing more than they gain, and a few will be gaining more than they lose.


Also, in regards to
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"cheating", cheaters won't be finding ways around it. Howrse hasn't actually created any game mechanism to "get around" with these new changes. "Cheaters" will just carry on as usual, by:
1. Using PMs to work out deals
2. Using reserved sales to sell the first horse and then a second/third/fourth useless horse to add on to the price of the more valuable one.

Is this different than how it is now? Nope. Now the seller has to increase prices to make up for tax, but there's absolutely no difference to if they had used a public sale to sell that horse. It's kind of funny how Howrse's logic works here.

In my opinion this behavior isn't cheating, it's literally using available game mechanisms to exchange currency, horses, and items. Real cheating is using outside mechanisms to gain an advantage, like scripts and illegal buying/selling of passes for real money from other players. Howrse very well knows that if they wanted to stop cheating they could just create game mechanisms that allow for easier trade, but here they've just poorly disguised a money grab as "cheating prevention."
doodlebug
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doodlebug:


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I agree with your view on cheating and cheaters there. this tax is punishing the players that play by the rule,why cheaters will just manipulate this system to not loose as much or


Besides..how is selling horses cheating? Yes,there were the pass-horse trading sales in the past (or horse-item trade) that was done outside the system. Or Item-pass trades outside the system. But those exist ONLY because Howrse refuses to add a few more options to prevent this kind of sales. Not only that. for some reason, some items (vintage apple,hestias gift, seal of apocalypse) are impossible to trade in the trading market. For no reason. I guess they fear the value of a divine that gives out a hestias gift would fall ,but Im pretty sure it would do the opposite; it would make those divines more valuable. At least if those divines where available for being put in sales.


The taxes are just money grab. There are no nice way to put it, or explain,or even nice outcomes. Its taxes. In a game. Because they said so. Because we all know when someone joins a game, they want taxes be part of it.
shishi no seirei
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Personally, I will not be selling much during the first cycle as I would rather wait and see if my "pay in" amount will be equal to my "take out" amount first.
ventus
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Did not mean to start argument but well if problems aren't in open they fester like a wound and then well rot sets in. So this my explanation. Besides , not good at the covering up thing.default smiley :s
gandalf
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Meant to ask how many Maori divines will there be? And how many Pastry ones I know they are sets of two. Will we see eclairs` next? Even brownies? Or canolli? Macarroons? Rugala?
(come in various flavors delicious.) or will they be Fudge and chocolate chip cookies?
Huge sweet tooth.
gandalf
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Gandalf wrote:

Meant to ask how many Maori divines will there be? And how many Pastry ones I know they are sets of two. Will we see eclairs` next? Even brownies? Or canolli? Macarroons? Rugala?
(come in various flavors delicious.) or will they be Fudge and chocolate chip cookies?
Huge sweet tooth.


At this point in time we have no idea how many they are planning on doing, or what ones, we will just have to wait and see.
rogin
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Shishi no Seirei wrote:

doodlebug:


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I agree with your view on cheating and cheaters there. this tax is punishing the players that play by the rule,why cheaters will just manipulate this system to not loose as much or


Besides..how is selling horses cheating? Yes,there were the pass-horse trading sales in the past (or horse-item trade) that was done outside the system. Or Item-pass trades outside the system. But those exist ONLY because Howrse refuses to add a few more options to prevent this kind of sales. Not only that. for some reason, some items (vintage apple,hestias gift, seal of apocalypse) are impossible to trade in the trading market. For no reason. I guess they fear the value of a divine that gives out a hestias gift would fall ,but Im pretty sure it would do the opposite; it would make those divines more valuable. At least if those divines where available for being put in sales.


The taxes are just money grab. There are no nice way to put it, or explain,or even nice outcomes. Its taxes. In a game. Because they said so. Because we all know when someone joins a game, they want taxes be part of it.


Exactly. And actually I believe

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these new changes won't really punish players that play by the rules more, because people who use non-approved ways of trading/buying/selling are also getting the same taxes. Really you can see it as either everyone is getting punished or nobody is getting punished, because "cheaters" aren't actually being put at a greater disadvantage than anybody else.
doodlebug
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gabbigirl1 wrote:

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So is Howrse changing the pass horses now?


I can answer 2:
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It's a Chameleon.
wolf of the north
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doodlebug wrote:

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Losing some to gain some is nice but you don't gain the same amount you lose. The only BMIs I ever need buy in the black market are golden apples and very very occasionally a luck item when there's a promotion. Okay cool, I've paid who knows how much in taxes now because I'm a regular buyer/seller, but the only BMIs on sale are things I don't need? Or if all are on sale, I still have to /pay/ to get them. If you think about it, we've probably already paid for those items' costs in the amount of taxes we give, but we have to pay /again/ to actually obtain them. Many of us might not even have enough equus to buy more than one or two items. I think many will be losing more than they gain, and a few will be gaining more than they lose.


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I completely agree with you about losing more than you give. All I am saying is that it is not a 100% loss. I feel the Great Challenge does the exact same thing, which is why I used it as an example. You spend resources, equus, items, ect, to have access to the lotto/carnival which you still have to pay to participate.

I just wish you could choose to HAVE tax and participate in the community pot events, or choose NO tax and do not get to participate in community pot events. That way, players that do not want anything to do with the community pot, will not have to spend resources towards it.

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather have no tax at all. I don't like the idea of it. But as long as howrse sets the tax at reasonable amount, I will tolerate it. By the looks of it though, this will not be the case. I probably should have explained my opinion better. I don't post in the forum often. default smiley xd


doodlebug wrote:

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"cheating", cheaters won't be finding ways around it. Howrse hasn't actually created any game mechanism to "get around" with these new changes. "Cheaters" will just carry on as usual, by:
1. Using PMs to work out deals
2. Using reserved sales to sell the first horse and then a second/third/fourth useless horse to add on to the price of the more valuable one.

Is this different than how it is now? Nope. Now the seller has to increase prices to make up for tax, but there's absolutely no difference to if they had used a public sale to sell that horse. It's kind of funny how Howrse's logic works here.


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I agree with this as well. Other than the part about selling several horses in exchange for one horse. I do not agree with that part. If howrse wanted players exchanging items for horses ect, they would have put in a system to do so. So yes, this is considerd going against howrse rules and cheating. Moving on...

When I said "get around" I meant that no matter what howrse implements to the game, "cheaters" will always find a way around it. Not necessarily this sales update. This 10% tax sales I agree will do NOTHING to stop "cheating". I don' t even understand why howrse thinks it will/says it will. It has nothing to do with stopping "cheating". Maybe it is for money. Maybe it is part of some other plan for the game. We don't really know. I guess we just have to wait and see.default smiley :)

I really don't think it will be as bad as some might think. This will be the last post I make on this matter until the changes go live. No point in saying anymore about it until the update happens. I will reach a final opinion once I have tried it out. I won't really know until then anyway. default smiley :p


I hope I don't offend anyone with any of my posts because that is not my intent. I apologize if I have. I am not very good at writing in the forums.default smiley (lol) Not a very social person, but I am trying.default smiley :p This will be my last post on the matter anyway.

Happy Howersing!

Narnia. out!
~jade~
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LouisLegend wrote:

I just had the thought
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how will Themis' Scales work with this new version of passes and BMI costs? Some things will be priced different, I dont know if theres going to be 100-150-200-etc types of prices or if we could get 100-125-150-etc types of prices.
With that, you might want to trade a 250 pass BMI. But that makes it harder to get multiple of a cheaper item. You can't get 2.5 of a 100 pas BMI so you're only stuck with... a 250 pass item? Two 125 pass items?
I can't understand or see how the Scales can work well with this development. But I'd love to know if there is a way that's been talked about before that I haven't seen.


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I just tested this on Preprod, I was still able to trade one Nyx Pack for 6 GAs, or Lightning bolts, or for 3 Bonus packs, or 3 Harmony Packs. So it appears the transfer rate is the same as it would be usually. Not sure if this will change, but it looks like the exchange rate is the same as it is now.
rogin
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...Looks like many players are going to be leaving or refuting the economy changes.
I wish Horse would just stop sometimes. Stop and smell the roses and enjoy what it has for longer.

I can honestly say if these new changes come into place I'm only going to log in now and then to keep my account open and that's it. The quality of game play just keeps going down default smiley :(
ᴋᴀᴡᴀsᴀᴋɪ ɴɪɴᴊᴀ
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ᴋᴀᴡᴀsᴀᴋɪ ɴɪɴᴊᴀ wrote:

...Looks like many players are going to be leaving or refuting the economy changes.
I wish Horse would just stop sometimes. Stop and smell the roses and enjoy what it has for longer.

I can honestly say if these new changes come into place I'm only going to log in now and then to keep my account open and that's it. The quality of game play just keeps going down default smiley :(


Preach~~~
frankenstein
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(spoiler) Okay, so I am going to hope the spoilers work this time. They seem to hate me. :/ (/spoiler)
monkal
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