100% agree, it's a terrible loophole. It should either not be possible to reduce GP beyond what has already been sold, or below a previous GP.

100% agree.

At the very least:
Whatever changes are imposed by the team AFTER sale of the horse, should not affect horses that no longer belong to the team (were sold to public)

I disagree.
The entire point of having this in the game was to prevent gp theft or accidentally dropping a gp above release into sales. This has saved MANY teams from ignorant players unhappy when leaving a team because a lot of players cannot be trusted with any team horses after being removed. My team included. I've seen this over and over many times. A player disgruntled with being kicked from a team or having a bad time would drop gp in sales for cheap instead of reserving the horses back to the original team

I think its important to keep this mechanic in game, as it also helps people from accidentally dropping gp into sales too. Its saved me quite a few times LOL

When this game mechanic came out there were a few people who had ideas about this, mostly being that there should be a cooldown of sorts to prevent people dumping then dropping release again. Is it annoying? Absolutely. I get the anger for it. I have a few teams in mind that have intentionally done this to gain passes, but thankfully its not common behavior.

I'm aware of which team you're speaking of, and this was not maliciously done. And quite frankly if you understood the circumstances of the team you shouldn't have posted this about them. You ignore the teams who have done this intentionally, and the prix team that has sold THOUSANDS of horses then dropped release to 100gp.

Thank you for sharing your opinion!

I think you make a really good point about teams deserving to protect their GP. I've been a team member before, I know just how much time, effort and resources go in to sustaining and thriving in a team, and I am not at all against teams having that safety net. Competition is at the heart of Howrse, and it should 100% be as fair and sporting as possible.

However, I do disagree with teams being able to reverse the GP release cap low enough that every single team horse they've ever sold loses it's breeding rights. That is not just protecting a GP gap, that's punishing your previous supporters when they've done nothing wrong. I think it's a completely unviable way to play the game, and this loophole in the mechanic is, as you say yourself, open to abuse from teams intentionally wishing to scam players, but also those without malicious intentions, such as in this case.

I think as equally as the time and effort and resources that a team has invested into their horses should be considered and protected, as should the passes and in game currency that buyers of these horses spend on purchasing said horses. I don't understand how any one can think it is fair for good faith buyers who purchase multitiple horses, not just one or two horses that slipped through by accident, but hundreds of surplus teams horses that are being sold to fund the continued investment into the compeittive team, how it could ever be considered fair that the are completely locked out from their investment.

Apply this to any other real world example:

I go to buy a car. The car comes with an engine, as agreed in the deed of sale. Several months down the line, the buyer I bought the car from comes back out of the blue and takes the engine from the car, leaving me with a car I can't use. I am out of pocket, and the cherry on top of the cake is that I can't even sell the car and buy another car because the previous owner has told me I'm not allowed to. It sounds a little silly, don't you think?

This is the exact same thing that is happening in this case. A horse was sold with full breeding rights, then an administrator decided several months down the line to revoke those rights, leaving buyers unable to sell/breed their horses.

And these aren't just low level horses, these are horses being sold for high numbers of passes that people are spending hard earned money on, they have GAs, RC's, Philosophers stones, and the value of these items are being completely written off due to no fault of the buyer. In this instance, it is also female unicorns, who are more valuable than non-unis, and are bought for the specific purpose of breeding. Whether the team intends to be malicious or not, they are still profiting and benefitting from people who are being robbed of their investment, either because they can't sell and make a return, or because they can't follow through with why they bought the horse in the first place.

If teams are experiencing divides within their numbers, that should not fall at the cost of the wider public that are purchasing team horses. That is an internal team responsibility to mediate and resolve, and previous buyers shouldn't be punished by an administrator responding emotionally to something that then punishes every individual who has ever bought a horse from them. That completely goes against the spirit of fair play. The disgruntled player should be dealt with via the proper channels provided by Howrse.

You also mention how the mechanic in its current state of play is important so that teams don't "accidentally" sell horses. I've looked into barely a quarter of the team horses affected in this particular circumstance, and of that quarter 65+ individual player accounts have been impacted and more than 130+ horses now owned by non-team buyers have lost their breeding sales rights. A team accidentally sells 1 or 2 horses, not 130+. And teams could still protect themselves from accidental sales should a GP decrease cap implemented, so I don't understand why this is an issue you would be concerned about?

So yes, I agree with you that teams absolutely should have means of protecting their GP gap. But they should not hold the right to completely decimate the value of horses they previously sold to good faith buyers at the sole cost of the buyer. Limiting the amount of GP the cap can be reduced by once public sales have been made is a more than fair amendment to a loophole that is affecting hundreds of player and having a detrimental affect on the value of in game purchasable items.

Regarding your comment about which team this my post is in regards to, I am in agreement that their decision was not maliciously made. The administrator has explained the circumstances to me to some degree, and I have been more than symapethetic to what they've been through. I have not made this post to oust or shame them, I have followed Howrse guidelines to the T and insisted others do too. No one should be cruel to each other in this game.

And I am not ignoring teams who have done this intentionally, I am simply referring to this scenario as it is the first time I have been personally experienced by the ramifications of the current game mechanic. Before I was affected I didn't even know such a mechanic existed! But now that I do, I feel a responsibility to raise this issue and to raise how buyers are being unfairly treated when their hard earned investments are being completely locked from them. This goes beyond my individual circumstance, and I wish to see a broad change to this mechanic to protect good faith players. If even you can see that teams are capable of abusing this mechanic, why would you not seek to find a resolution that protects both you and the buyers that support you?

Thank you again for your feedback, I think it's important to discuss these topics so that the game can improve and retain its competitive spirit. I wish nothing but the best to the team this particular situation has stemmed from, and I wish them every success in the further development of their team horses.

A team can accidentally sell 130+ horses. Accidents happen all the time and this has happened in the past where many horses were sold with the mass sales method. In no way am I saying this particular incident was an accident, I'dve assumed you'd know that's not what I was saying. I've accidentally done so, maybe not so many at a time but more than enough. I've accidentally put horses into the wrong tabs before and sold them off.
A friend of mine accidentally sold 2 HoGs for 80p because they were in the wrong tab and not properly labeled, so she sold them for GA prices since they had GAs on them. Accidents happen.

In fact I recall a point in time where a top player had their account hacked, their horses sold, and their teammates had to drop release as low as possible to prevent the horses from being sold from the acc and to keep the horses that had sold from being bred. I think it's completely reasonable. This game mechanic saved multiple teams from having their hard work from YEARS of playing being wasted.

If you're worried about this happening, then don't buy team horses. Buy from independent breeders you know can't do this. You're funding a regular player and not risking losing the horse in the future, its a win win for the both of you.

You already know what happened to this team and why the release was dropped the way it was, and you've already been told that as of right now release will not be increased until the admin feels its safe to do so. This player has almost 500+ team horses and hasn't sold a single one, and what was sold was from almost a year ago from someone else you've already messaged even though they're not on the team, haven't been for almost a year, and can't do anything about the sales release. These people have more than enough right to report you for harassing them and their team, just because YOU think they should increase their teams gp doesn't mean they will. You have no right to dictate what another team can and can't do because you think its unfair or you don't like it. That's like me telling a top prix team that they can't sell their prix preps for so much because I don't like their prices and that I wont pay so much for a gelding because I can't breed it. It's ignorant

This is a game, not something as serious as a real life car. If you buy from teams then you acknowledge that something like this CAN possibly happen to you. I do not normally buy from teams for this same reason because it can be risky especially if you are wanting to breed for your own team or gp increase. All you can do is ask if the team will buy their horse back or just wait it out. Going to these players and harassing them telling them to drop their gp is harassment and they have every right to report you! and I hope they do because you don't have a right to tell someone how to play their game or what to do with their teams

searching through an entire teams horses just to find what horses are sold to who and count them up all because you cant breed what like 5 horses is a little embarrassing.. and then harassing the team to drop their sales gp? that is just really not cool and i think youre making a mountain out of a molehill with this issue.

Hi Jane, I'm unable to quote from your reply, so i'll try my best to keep my feedback cohesive!

"A team can accidentally sell 130+ horses. Accidents happen all the time and this has happened in the past where many horses were sold with the mass sales method. In no way am I saying this particular incident was an accident, I'dve assumed you'd know that's not what I was saying. I've accidentally done so, maybe not so many at a time but more than enough. I've accidentally put horses into the wrong tabs before and sold them off."

Absolutely accidents happen, we are in agreement regarding this case. I fully support there being a cap on what horses can and can't be sold to minimise these sorts of errors. I do not agree however that the game mechanic that enables this should also work so that a team can rescind the sales/breeding rights for every single horse it has ever sold, especially when those horses were sold with those rights and for extortionate amount of passes.

"In fact I recall a point in time where a top player had their account hacked, their horses sold, and their teammates had to drop release as low as possible to prevent the horses from being sold from the acc and to keep the horses that had sold from being bred. I think it's completely reasonable. This game mechanic saved multiple teams from having their hard work from YEARS of playing being wasted."

A player having their account hacked is awful, but again why should the players that supported your team by buying your surplus horses be punished for this? Because in this specific case with this team, it isn't as simple as the cap being reasonably reduced from say 30k GP to 27k GP. Every single buyer who has ever bought from the team has lost their breeding rights. Buyers who bought 21k GP horses from the team a year and a half ago who are not a competitive threat have lost their rights, and they didn't hack the player, so why are they losing their entire investment?

"If you're worried about this happening, then don't buy team horses. Buy from independent breeders you know can't do this. You're funding a regular player and not risking losing the horse in the future, its a win win for the both of you."

I admit I do find this statement baffling when it is the support of players buying surplus team horses that directly contribute to reinvestment into the team and it's players. I think it's also you telling on yourself, because if this is your understanding then you appreciate the risk and how detrimental it can be, yet still expect the buyer to shoulder all that risk whilst the team takes their passes and suffers no ramifications. Before this I was proud to buy from team's because it felt like my passes were going into something that meant a lot to someone, and that was leading to direct improvement in the game. Though certainly after this I will never buy a team horse again, and I think others should absolutely be advised on the risk that buying team horses poses.

"You already know what happened to this team and why the release was dropped the way it was, and you've already been told that as of right now release will not be increased until the admin feels its safe to do so."

I have been told that the admin may never increase the release ever again, which would leave hundreds of players out of pocket and hundreds of horses unusable. I think having this ability goes against the sporting nature of the game, and it threatens the game's economy when this affects horses with multiple BMIs.

"This player has almost 500+ team horses and hasn't sold a single one, and what was sold was from almost a year ago from someone else you've already messaged even though they're not on the team, haven't been for almost a year, and can't do anything about the sales release."

Again, I don't understand why buyers should suffer due to a change in team leadership. If the horses were sold under someone else, I can't control that, and I shouldn't be punished by having my horse locked for a crime I haven't done just because someone else has now taken lead, and didn't agree with the past leaders competitive approach. I bought the horses in good faith.

"These people have more than enough right to report you for harassing them and their team, just because YOU think they should increase their teams gp doesn't mean they will. You have no right to dictate what another team can and can't do because you think its unfair or you don't like it. That's like me telling a top prix team that they can't sell their prix preps for so much because I don't like their prices and that I wont pay so much for a gelding because I can't breed it. It's ignorant"

I have not harassed anyone ever. I have full logs of the four message long conversation I had between myself and the team admin, which I have also provided to the Howrse support team because I just knew someone would eventually cry wolf in this way. All I am trying to do here is discuss how we can fix this game mechanic that is currently open to abuse. I have never dictated what a team should do, I have only ever politely explained my situation to the admin and also the impact it has had then kindly requested they reconsider their decision. The decisions here have always been with the admin. They even offered to add me to the team, to which I said that they should feel absolutely no obligation at all to do that, it's their team, I'm not at all interested in dictating what they should do with it or who they should invite. All I want is to be able to breed the horses I bought from the team in good faith, and the right to sell them. Nothing has ever been dictated to anyone.

Please also refrain from calling me ignorant, I don't want any abuse on this thread, I only want to hear people's feedback and find a resolution for this.

Hi Bulka, thank you for your feedback!

I used the car metaphor as I felt this may better convey to people how silly this mechanic actually is. At the end of the day, a product has been bought with certain rights attached to it (i.e, sales/breeding), irregardless of what that product is, if the seller finds you seven months down the line and prevents you from using the product for the entire reason you bought it for, whilst leaving you out of pocket, surely there is an issue here?

"If you buy from teams then you acknowledge that something like this CAN possibly happen to you."

To be honest, when I buy a horse I don't expect that I may randomly lose access to that horse. I also wasn't aware of this mechanic until you're right, it did happen to me! A lesson has been learned though, I won't be buying from teams again, not unless I know they are 100% reputable.

"All you can do is ask if the team will buy their horse back or just wait it out."

I don't want to sell my horse back, and quite frankly I don't udnerstand why I should have to when I bought it in good faith? Its 23kGP, it's of no competitive threat to the team, nor have I any interest to produce high GP horses. And I also did say to the admin I was more than happy to wait for the cap to rise, but the admin stated they may never increase the cap, so I may never be able to breed/sell the horse I bought from them. Wouldn't you also feel upset by this and think that this was maybe a flaw in the mechanism?

Also, I do feel more care should be taken when accusing people of harassment when you have no evidence. Or please, do provide examples of how I have harassed someone, if you have this evidence yourself? My interest here is only to find a solution to what is becoming and increasingly more common problem. I just want access to my horses back,and to ensure no one gets scammed or caught out by what I believe is a outrageous loophole, that's all.

Hi Tilda,

Thanks for your feedback!

Do you have evidence of the harassment? If so please provide it or forward it to the Howrse team.

And yes, I wanted to understand how many people this issue may have affected so I could properly pass this on to the Howrse/Owlient team when I raised my service request. Admittedly I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to figures, so was interested in what those stats would look like! I reviewed around 550 of a total 1600 horses, though gave up when I realised just how many people were affected.

I actually found that one player has 20+ horses that they could no longer sell or use, which was heartbreaking but also kind of reassuring to know I wasn't the only one getting caught out by this.

I do certainly think it's a much bigger issue than it appears. Ever since posting I've seen so many accounts from other players who have been scammed by teams using this mechanic. I just hope it can be fixed so it protects the teams from accidental sales/gp theft, as well as protects their buyers

Because at the end of the day its the teams choice, not yours. If you have an issue with this then stop buying horses from teams. Like I said before and like the other player said, buying from a team means you know this CAN happen. Doesn't mean it will happen or happen often, but its always a possibility. I've seen your message that you sent to the team, and quite frankly you sounded very entitled in it. You were told the reason why sales gp was dropped so low and still had the absolute gal to double down and say that YOU think sales gp should be increased anyways, completely ignoring the message that was sent to you and why it won't be increased in the near future.
You don't have a right to make demands on a team that isn't yours.

Messaging multiple players that have previously been on the team and then the admin of the team to get them to drop sales release could definitely be considered harassment, especially since you've messaged multiple people about this "issue". Going around messaging old members who have nothing to do with the team currently isn't going to be useful.

This mechanic has existed in game for a while now, howrse is not likely to change it on a whim because you want to breed a few unicorns.
Stalking an entire teams horses just to count up what's been sold or not is actually concerning behavior. You're better off actually playing the game instead of doing that

honeslty kinda deranged behavior... batman himself could not beat this information out of me. straight up admitting to stalk an entire team yikes...

you know you dont need to stalk a team and harass old teammates and the admin to make a contact us ticket about this issue right? youre just admitting to being weird

Hi Jane,

Thanks again for your feedback! Can't quote again, will try again to keep it cohesive and easy to read <3

"Because at the end of the day its the teams choice, not yours. If you have an issue with this then stop buying horses from teams. Like I said before and like the other player said, buying from a team means you know this CAN happen. Doesn't mean it will happen or happen often, but its always a possibility."

I understand at this time that it is the teams choice, but that does not mean it is correct or beneficial for the game. I raised this matter with the Howrse/Owlient team because I do think there is a flaw with this mechanic, and that the teams are benefitting from this flaw at the cost of their buyers investments. As outlined in the Howrse terms of services, this goes against policy.

For instance, the code explicitly forbids "Organizing scams, abusing trust... Exploiting any aspect of Howrse by taking advantage of bugs and flaws." You yourself stated that other teams have used this mechanism to scam players. Do you not think then that the mechanism as it is now should be looked into to try and reduce this?

Telling players to "not buy team horses" isn't a suitable fix. Especially when we as players are aware that this is an ongoing issue and people are getting scammed by it. Newer players who do not have the experience of knowledge to anticipate these can easily be duped, similar to myself, who as a casual player didn't even know this mechanism existed until a few months ago. Shouldn't we be working together to work out what the impact of this is and suggest improvements?

"I've seen your message that you sent to the team, and quite frankly you sounded very entitled in it. You were told the reason why sales gp was dropped so low and still had the absolute gal to double down and say that YOU think sales gp should be increased anyways, completely ignoring the message that was sent to you and why it won't be increased in the near future.
You don't have a right to make demands on a team that isn't yours."

I don't believe I sounded entitled in my message, though you are free to believe that if you wish. I think I was very symapthetic in my messages, and ended all of them with only best wishes for the admin, and multiple reassurances that I think this is all just a very unfortunate situation where multiple people have been impacted. I never told the admin to increase the cap, but I did explain how I thought this situation could be resolved by doing so. Whatever decision she made would always remain her prerogative, I never insisted or demanded that she do anything.

"Messaging multiple players that have previously been on the team and then the admin of the team to get them to drop sales release could definitely be considered harassment, especially since you've messaged multiple people about this "issue". Going around messaging old members who have nothing to do with the team currently isn't going to be useful."

I only ever messaged another player about this once a couple months before, again with the same query and a polite inquiry as to whether the cap would ever be increased, more out of genuine curiosity than anything else. If you seen this message, you will know I stated I was more than happy to wait for the cap to increase, and that I did not follow up when I did not receive a reply, and that the message in its entirety was nothing but polite. Is it possible you are mistaking my tone to be more hostile than it actually is because you are frustrated with me raising this issue?

The sum of my messages with the admin was four messages, two of hers, two of mine. Both messages were intended to open a friendly channel of communication, to further my own understanding of the situation, and also try to explain the impact of the decision to raise the cap.

I have messaged no one else but the Howrse/Owlient team about this issue. Nor have I stalked or harassed anyone. The teams horses are available for public view, I simply counted how many now belonged to non-team members and provided the Howrse/Owlient team with some basic stats, how is this stalking? These accusations are beginning to border on slanderous now, so I ask again for your to provide evidence of your claims or forward it to the Howrse team.

"This mechanic has existed in game for a while now, howrse is not likely to change it on a whim because you want to breed a few unicorns.
Stalking an entire teams horses just to count up what's been sold or not is actually concerning behaviour. You're better off actually playing the game instead of doing that"

Just because the mechanic has existed for a while, does not mean that it is fit for purpose. Hundreds of people are losing out on their passes for no good reason. Surely we should work together to try and fix this so it doesn't happen to others? But you've yet to actually appreciate the impact this has had on buyers, you seem only interested in how it affects the team, which is to say, very little.

Hi GrafOrlov,

Thank you for your feedback!

The horses are avilable to view on a public page, so it was really quite simple to establish which ones now belonged to non-team players and calculate the potential impact. The owners names are listed right on the record after all.

Like I said previously, I have raised this with the Howrse/Owlient team because I think the machanism is flawed. In order to prove a flaw, you need to know who it is impacting and how widespread it is. I think 65+ players affected from a quick review of a quarter of just one teams total horse production shows that this is having quite an impact, especially when these players were sold these horses believing they would always retain full breeding/sales rights. I really do think he issue should be explored further by the Howrse support team so we can avoid people getting caught out like this in the future.

Please forward any evidence of stalking or harassment to the Howrse team.

Hi everyone.

This is a topic that has been brought up in various channels to admin before, such as preprod, game-dev q&a, etc, so the team is aware of player concerns regarding it. If you have further feedback or suggestions about the sales cap, please feel free to continue sending that to Contact Us

As there's been quite a bit of discuasion here already, I'm going to lock this before it gets too heated, and before we get too close to calling out specific players or teams.

Thanks everyone. Locking up