I am quite angry about this, but it’s not the first time that they have temporarily closed the thread because of mean or nasty comments, not allowing us to express our concerns!
So let’s keep it vigorous without insulting

Oops sorry i thought the message got deleted but it actually bumped up to the next page

[quote=1403596553][author]Retired breeder[/author]I understand what you are saying. But also, Howrse does not listen to anything that the players tell them. With that comes great frustration. So, overtime you become a little cranky. [/quote:0] We actually do listen to everything you say. We spend a great deal of time writing feedback reports on various issues on a regular basis. It doesn't mean that we're not listening if we don't do what you want us to do. It may feel like we're not listening to you, but we consider all of your points in the decision-making process. Unfortunately, sometimes decisions are made that some players don't like. We don't take them lightly, however, sometimes they're necessary for reasons that aren't always apparent to players. Also, keep in mind that most changes that we have made have some players who hate them and some players who love them. It's hard to please everyone. And a little cranky is fine, but assigning bad motives to us and being insulting to those who are just trying to help is a bit beyond that. I know it's tough and it may feel like you're talking to an entity, but we're people with feelings too.

@ZOwey, what about what I've said in the previous page?

[quote=1403596543][author]GeneralLee[/author]Ok then let’s do the same with less horses. Make the odds 1 out of 3 for the first 300 horses (100 APs) and then make it 1 in 15 for the next 700 (46 APs). Overall, more or less the same total, but would highly favor those with less time available, and still help those who want to farm 1000 by letting them get 150 APs[/quote:0] Sorry GeneralLee, I missed that one. I can certainly suggest that to the team. Like I said, we're collecting feedback about this change so maybe hearing your side will help them to understand why this is more of an issue than they expected it to be. Generally, when there is a change that we know players are going to be upset about, we're prepared ahead of time and we announce it. However, I honestly don't think they expected it to affect players as much as you are saying that it does. We expected it to only noticeably affect a small percentage of players on each version. There is also the possibility that the system isn't functioning exactly as planned, that's why it's important to collect lots of feedback. I'm leaving for today so if you ask me a question from this point, I won't be able to answer until tomorrow.

Thank you ZOwey for the patient explanation. I understand this a bit more now. I still feel that this should be announced. I can see both sides to this and do agree that it may need some tweaks. But it could be very helpful for keeping new players on the game longer. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to explain this to us in more detail. I hope to give some feed back on how this change is affecting me soon.

[quote=1403596529][author]ZOwey[/author]The idea is that the chance to get the AP is frontloaded so that the majority of the AP comes from the first several hundred. The amount should be *roughly* the same as it was before, just less from the later horses[/quote:0] As Banner OS proved the drop rate of APs is cut almost in half. With Shenma triggered she only got 151 APs. Before the change it would have been around 225. This is blatantly sneaky and underhanded. You've given an incentive for newer players to farm while stabbing loyal max farming players in the back. This game is turning into a pay-to-play and you're losing players in droves who don't want to pay for something that has been free for 12+ years.

I can understand making a change to balance it out a bit, but what I can't understand or accept is the sneaky ways that they are done and are then tried to be dressed up as a thing to help the players. I have been here for over 10 years now and I am honestly starting to question if there is more being hidden from us, considering this isn't the first time you have put a hidden change in, like the foundie gp change, changing the price of fodder and wheat bran, now this change, what will be the next thing that will be changed behind our back without warning? Placing doubt in your players is no way for a success game to be run.

I personally feel this is a very unfair change to the 'vets' on this game.. We have worked hard to farm and play by the rules, now this? I think something should change.. Either add much more Ap in the AP pack, OR seriously decrease the price of the packs.

However if this is really for the 'new' players, then you guys should make a perk for the new players and not take from those who have been loyal to this game. Like objectives, or a perk for new players to earn more Ap. I dont think this change is fair, and i've stood by the good and the bad this game has recently has come out with.. You guys are LOOSING members over some of these changes. Please stop.

*Laughs* Well that didn't stop you guys from implementing the pass horse change, did it? You flat out told us, quoted "These changes are here and while we're very interested to hear your feedback about it, player consensus isn't going to make it go away." So don't get mad if we don't believe you, since you've given us reason not to in the past.

Do you guys even realize the site is dying? There's not really much value to adding these changes, positive or negative, anymore. Just let the site wither away in its current state.

Really, well said! I totally agree

I don’t farm much as I have limited time so I’m not really annoyed, however, my first thought was - are the odds were being changed to combat cheaters? If this is what your aim is, please consider investing in better detection systems.

There are players out there who have multiple accounts they farm, players who are buying accounts so they have extra places they can care for horses so that they have aging points spread out over accounts. Not to mention, if you look clearly at the most cared for horses ranking, these players look after many horses across multiple accounts (bought or multi) some without VIP (which would take a good 2 hours or so to do so) so they are clearly abusing the use of scripts.

I have tried multiple times to report what is going on, you tell me that you can’t do anything as you need to ensure that the players are doing wrong. These players will never get caught because they use methods to mask this like VPNs to ensure they’re never caught for buying accounts or using multis or I am assuming they most likely put themselves on co management and use this through the accounts to limit logins. I don’t know the ins and outs exactly of how they don’t manage to get caught, but there’s is something that your system does not pick up clearly that they have figured out otherwise they would be bannned by now. When it’s that obvious to the naked eye, why is it not obvious to the system you use?

I have sent you in the past video proof of a previous playing using a script to care for horses on a non VIP account as well as “BLUPPING” a horse in the hopes it would help you figure out how you can try and catch out these players but nothing is done.

I don’t blame you guys for changing the odds, I blame the cheaters on the game that force the changes but what I don’t agree on is the team brushing these cheats off and not doing anything about it. If you want to punish players, I think first of all invest in better software to catch out players who are not playing fairly then review where the game is at and what affects it has. I can assure you getting rid of the cheaters will make it a much more fair playing field for everyone.

I’m sorry for the rant but I’m tired of things being ignored all the time. You were supposed to be cracking down on cheaters but have not done so yet. You did for a while but then it seems to have stopped. I even reported a player the other day who had sold multiple divines to another player for a very small amount of equus. These divines go for above 1 million equus usually or 400 passes in sales. This is trafficking in front of your eyes, why is nothing done about it? Why do you continue to hurt the players who play fairly.

*previous player not previous playing

Yes, yes, YES! This would be actually a great new feature for everyone, no matter how much time they got to invest in this game. Newbies get more aging points easier and those whom farm 1000 horses would still benefit for their used time (just as they used to). Because honestly if I only get the around 104 aging points a day (yes, I have been calculating these every day..) instead of the 150 I used to have, I am not able to blub as much as I was before. Therefore I wont be bying as much black market items with passes and not bying as much passes as I used to. And because I personally think that aging point packages are way too overpriced I wont buy them either. So in my case you will lose money.

So basically we who really invest our time in this game are just losing (because of this new feature) and I personally feel like Howrse is just backstabbing me and everyone who has the time to actually use in this game. I don't really feel like using any of my money on this game if it doesn't give anything back, it seems that it only takes and takes. A bit by bit with every new feature they present to us. I've got over them over time, but I'm starting to think that Howrse doesn't appreciate me as a spending customer but rather as something to get rid of as fast as possible to make room for the new players. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I'm hurt and I feel like no one in Howrse truly listens to us - at least in the finnish server where we only get grumpy and round anwswers to anything we ask and it is not helpful at all. At least here we have somewhat friendly answers to the questions we might have.

But still it would be nice if admins actually use the ambassadors we chose and at least inform them about these new features. Of couse it would be only fair to inform us all about these kind of changes instead of being kind of arrogant and think that no one will notice these kinds of changes..

I'm also from the Finnish server, where we contacted the support.

And I'm very glad to see that this change is discussed here, because our support didn't give us all the facts and they didn't give us the chance to really tell our opinions.

I truly believe, that this change affects the older and more time-spendig players, not in a good way. As someone said, it affects greatly the ammount of blups we are able to do per day or per week. And when the time spent in this game is forced to decrease, it will surely make more and more players guit playing. And this game will not make as money as it does now, when the players who support this game financially are forced to spend less and less time because of this new change on how much you can find APs. I feel that it doesn't matter if I take care of 600 or 1000 horses, the amount of the APs gained is still the same. Because the 10 extra ones I get from taking care of the last 400 horses, is just a waste of time. So in my opinion this change will make the time-spending players spend less time playing, because they don't really benefit from it. And a big problem is also the overall ammount of AP gained. I hope you could find an alternative solution how the players who take care of all 1000 horses could still get the same amount of AP as before. That way you could at least prevent the likely drop on how much players can and will do blups and maybe save this situation, while still keeping it the way that you get more APs from the first 400 horses.

Would’ve been nice to know of this ahead of time

This ^^^

I can deal with the change personally, but I just can't deal with the fact there was no warning of it being done or that it had happened until people got suspicious and questioned it.

Which is exactly what I meant when I said in my last comment that if I was wrong about this being an underhanded monetization attempt that the team "prove it" to me.

Its really not the fact that they changed this, its the manner in which they changed it. Howrse seems to have the very CREEPY notion that their players, veteran or otherwise, are just going to believe everything they say over their own eyes and ears. As if paying customers who've been running AP farms are just going to not notice when these sort of changes are made. Not only is that never going to happen, but the fact that they keep THINKING IT WILL its what kills me.

Frankly, if the team were just up front and honest about wanting to put a higher value on the aging points so that they really WERE a pass worthy item; I'd respect that. I wouldn't like it, and I don't even breed horses competitively. But I could at least have some respect for their honesty.

The game just taking things away that were free though, and then trying to SELL THEM BACK TO YOU, is what I just won't tolerate. And to have the nerve to do that, and then have them talk as if they are doing YOU, the paying customer, some kind of SERVICE is what I find most insulting.

whats with all this sudden trying to make the game easier for newer players?

[quote=1403596597][author]pharaoh[/author]whats with all this sudden trying to make the game easier for newer players?[/quote:0]

My thoughts exactly. What happened to working hard for things?

I'm not as upset about this change as I am about some others, but it was really immature and disgraceful the way they went about it. How did they think we would not notice or care about it? At least make the announcement. With so many people, myself included, on the edge of walking away from this game, how could they think any change, no matter how "small", would not cause some sort of reaction?

I totally agree in what you are saying because I have been down the same road and reported (long with many others) some very suspicious activity and nothing has happened. That was a long time ago. I also reported some members working way over 3000 horses which is like over 1500 over the norm for most players. Now they are getting wise and dividing it among a few of their accounts. I pointed out that the multi accounts show the same things going on where one person buys pages of horses to move to their account from a newer account. That same person did the same thing on other accounts buying all the horses for 500 each. Now tell me why you would do all the blupping on someone's team and sell them all the horses you blupped but yet you are still on the team? Activity on these accounts are very sporadic. They are all members of the same team and lot of the time they have no friends. New members keep popping up on the team and others are no longer on Howrse. I am believing Howrse doesn't have the technology to catch them. So this may be the reason they started to make this particular change. Of course that is only speculation. When players script, have devices to hide their IP Address and have other cheating devices, it makes it impossible for honest players to go against such players. I don't have all the answers but for many players, they have stopped buying skillers from the known cheaters. Maybe not funding their account is one way to help stop such activity. If it isn't profitable for them, why would they continue such activities?

It seems very obvious to me that this is yet another way howrse is trying to combat multi accouting / scripting teams. The pass horse changes, these AP changes, ect. seem very targeted. I don't know why scripting can't be detected on its own and why we all have to pay the price for these bad apples, but if it gets rid of them, then it is an improvement. If it doesn't,, just like all the other changes so far, it is yet another downgrade to the game for no positive counterbalance.

Alright, here is my two cents that no one asked for. While only being here for about 2 months on this account I spent over 3 years on an account a while back. During that time I was not a pass buyer, I didn't belong to a big time team, I didn't sell horses constantly for passes, etc.

I kept an AP farm to help support any BLUPing or breeding I wanted to do, did whatever I could to earn passes, etc. By no means did I have all day to spend farming AP horses, and by no means was I paying anyone (Within the game or without) to farm for me.

I am back now. I am a pass buyer when I can be and I recognize the advantage that this, and the VIP membership gives me over other players. But I pay for that advantage as do many players here, many of whom haven't taken a break like I did, who have stuck to this game through all of it. We pay for the passes, the VIP perks (like preselected food), we pay for the divines that give VIP perks (thinking specifically of the perks like mass boarding and auto bed after grooming). People spend real money to support the game for the chance to get ahead a bit easier and to support their own game and AP stash. This game is not designed to be fair. Perks have been put in place to give an advantage to those who earn (getting passes from in game sales etc) or pay for it.

So why, after setting this game up in such a way, block people from actually getting ahead?

I understand the need to prevent cheating and scripting, but the fact is the people who are cheating? They find ways around this regardless. The players who I see really suffering are those that are following the rules.

Perhaps changes need to be made to the co-management features, systems to detect scripting better, i don't actually know a perfect solution and I won't pretend to. I am no expert on these things.

What I do know is that I will most likely not be adding to my AP farm except to finish out my coat collection, why spend time caring for horses that will do nothing for me? I will be BLUPing and breeding less, I can't deplete the AP supply. I will probably continue to work towards getting Divines, sure, I like them and they have benefits, but will I keep spending money on VIP so I can get perks? To be decided, probably because I like some non-AP related perks, but I genuinely do not know. If I don't have to have a massive AP farm and can do less to get roughly the same, why spend all the time and money?

I don't think the money I spend just on this account is going to make or break this website (I'm not stupid), but I think if the changes continue to go this way it will be interesting to see what happens with everyone else.

I have seen people advertise *on their public pages and ec forums* that they are looking for people to AP farm or BLUP for them, that they will pay weekly. I have seen these same messages followed by a "I know this is technically against the rules but whatever" note. If players can get away with such blatant disregard, and they know it, is such a change as AP odds really going to stop it?

Why can't we just decrease the max amount of horses from 1000 to 500 and keep the average AP found in a full farming day the same (150)?

Pros:
1. Buying/breeding 500 horses is a lot easier than 1000, making an AP farm more attainable for all players, new and veteran. It's still something new players have to work towards, because 500 horses is a lot, but it's half of what players are expected to own at the moment.

2. If the average AP gained in a day (150) remained constant, then the rate that all players find AP would double. It would benefit people with less horses, as they'd have an easier time finding AP and it would provide an incentive to get more horses.

3. Downsizing the AP farm limit to 500 would give players more time to actually play the game, rather than do daily maintenance for their account. It's fairly obvious at this point that AP farming is essential for players who take this game seriously. If we didn't, we wouldn't be spending a few hours every day to farm. Why not make it easier for everyone by cutting the "chores" of the game in half? It's mind-numbing work that, unless people are willing to chalk up thousands of dollars to buy AP consistently with real money, is required to play in almost capacity. The baseline work to play this game well is cumbersome and unnecessary.

4. I know of multiple people having to completely stop playing this game because of physical injuries to their hand that were caused by AP farming. The repetitive "clicking" motion with your average mouse is very harmful to the wrist and hand--Look up common causes of RSI in the wrist and hand. A VIP account with automatic feeding requires 5 clicks per horse (Selecting the food button, feed, groom, bed, next horse). Multiply that by 1000 (the max amount of horses to find ap currently), and you have 5,000 clicks per day, and that's just for the daily farming that goes on, not even the rest of the time spent playing. A player with a normal account (no automatic feeding) would add 1,000-2,000 clicks per day, depending on whether they use drop-down menus or the new interface to select the length of actions. Physically harming oneself is a serious problem. By halving the amount of clicks in AP farming (which I've deemed necessary for playing this game consistently and well), injuries or strain on the body would be less likely.

5. All of the statements above are reasons why people hire ap farmers and use scripts, which are against the rules. Howrse management most likely still wants to crack down on them, so by making AP farming something that is much more manageable for the average player (less time, less physical strain, easier to own a full farm, etc.), people will be less likely to resort to illegal actions.

6. This change, rather than the one that was recently implemented, doesn't change the daily AP gain from farming. Many people have already reported that their daily AP gain has diminished by about 50 AP. While this doesn't seem like a whole lot on its own, "losing" those 50 AP for a whole month would result in 1,500 AP no longer being utilized in game play. For a player who is currently farming 1000 horses on a daily basis in order to keep up with competitive teams, that would be 20-25 less blups they would be able to do. This whole change is to help out newer players, which is great for them, but when they're no longer a new player and are working to expand their game, it'll be hurting them too. There's nothing wrong with wanting to provide aid for beginners, but it shouldn't be done in a way that wastes the time of those who have been dedicated to the game for much longer.

Cons:
1. Those who do lessons when they farm (an additional 1,000 clicks per day for VIP and 2,000 clicks per day for non-VIP players, might I add) will have their income halved. While most people do lessons with their farm to cover boarding, there are some leftovers that surely add up over time. Same with those who do competitions with their horses. This is assuming that lessons would no longer offer monetary gains after 500 horses instead of 1000, since the daily limit would change.

2. I'm definitely biased, so please feel free to add other downsides to this idea--I'm having a hard time thinking of them.

@ZOwey, I really wish that you could actually suggest this idea to the team and try to make them understand that what I've said would be the perfect compromise for everyone, for both newer and older players.