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Ow
 
ow
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As a smaller and rather young player, this is alarming. I just started an AP farm, and this is definitely going to hinder my progress in BLUPping. I had to quit a team because I couldn't BLUP fast enough due to a lack of AP's. This is certainly frustrating, and this needs to be spread.
tarn
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Regarding Aging Points
Click to display
The system did change slightly but it is still based on luck. Basically, we made it so that the odds are higher for the first several hundred horses (I don't have an exact number for you, but it is a large number of horses) and then the odds taper off the more horses you care for.

The vast majority of players never even get close to caring for 1000 horses in a day, therefore that system was more advantageous for people who have copious amounts of time to spend caring for that many horses.

For this reason, the change only reduces the number of aging points for a small percentage of players.

The idea is for newer players or players with less time who can't wake that many horses to still have a chance to collect Aging Points at a reasonable rate.

In that way, the new odds should actually make it easier for new players to build up a supply.

zowey
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ZOwey wrote:

<font color="#b402cf">Regarding Aging Points</font>
Click to display
<font color="#b402cf">The system did change slightly but it is still based on luck. Basically, we made it so that the odds are higher for the first several hundred horses (I don't have an exact number for you, but it is a large number of horses) and then the odds taper off the more horses you care for.

The vast majority of players never even get close to caring for 1000 horses in a day, therefore that system was more advantageous for people who have copious amounts of time to spend caring for that many horses.

For this reason, the change only reduces the number of aging points for a small percentage of players.

The idea is for newer players or players with less time who can't wake that many horses to still have a chance to collect Aging Points at a reasonable rate.

In that way, the new odds should actually make it easier for new players to build up a supply.

</font>


Click to display
By why sabotage older, loyal players who spend a lot of time in the game to benefit new ones? Wouldn't it have been better to keep the maximum APs that can be gained in one day the same, but at the same time increase the odd for the first several hundred horses? In this way, those who farm 1000 horses would not be sabotaged and those who farm a bit less would still be able to collect APs at a reasonable rate!
generallee
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ZOwey wrote:

Regarding Aging Points
Click to display
The idea is for newer players or players with less time who can't wake that many horses to still have a chance to collect Aging Points at a reasonable rate.

If you please, don't treat us like 5 years olds with the IQ of a monkey.

Click to display
From what I read you are saying the change was made to make it better for people who cannot take care of N horses, and in the meantime you are saying the change is making it worse for people who CAN take care of more than N horses, because it is lowering the AP chances after the Nth horse.

Either I am incredibly dumb, or you (Howrse team) are incredibly arrogant...
primehellix
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Well, we don't see it as 'sabotaging' our players that farm more. We see it as decreasing the number of horses those players feel they have to farm in a day to collect Aging Points.

If a player wants to go the extra mile and care for all 1000 horses, they still can and they will likely receive more Aging Points than someone who only cares for a few hundred.

The change is to make it a little fairer for people who don't have that much time. As it is, the advantage is skewed towards people who have a lot of time and we don't want to penalize people who just don't have that option.
zowey
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ZOwey wrote:

<font color="#b402cf">Well, we don't see it as 'sabotaging' our players that farm more. We see it as decreasing the number of horses those players feel they <i>have</i> to farm in a day to collect Aging Points.

If a player wants to go the extra mile and care for all 1000 horses, they still can and they will likely receive more Aging Points than someone who only cares for a few hundred.

The change is to make it a little fairer for people who don't have that much time. As it is, the advantage is skewed towards people who have a lot of time and we don't want to penalize people who just don't have that option. </font>


If those players want to care for 1000 horses in a day, they just do it because they want to, not because they feel like the HAVE to do it.
You are well aware that by handing out less APs you are literally sabotaging the game of many players; please don't word it it as if you are trying to help us out.

I'm gonna repeat myself, why can't you keep the previous number of APs that could be collected in one day the same, and at the same time increase the odds for the first 600-700 horses?

Let me make an example. Previously you could get around 150 APs per day.
Now, if you really want to help players with less time available, make the odds 1 out of 5 for the first 600 horses (120 APs) and then make it 1 out of 12 for the last 400 horses (around 33). The total amount would be the same, but those who farm less would still be able to get very close to the amount of APs that those who farm more would get.
generallee
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ZOwey wrote:

<font color="#b402cf">Well, we don't see it as 'sabotaging' our players that farm more. We see it as decreasing the number of horses those players feel they <i>have</i> to farm in a day to collect Aging Points.

If a player wants to go the extra mile and care for all 1000 horses, they still can and they will likely receive more Aging Points than someone who only cares for a few hundred.

The change is to make it a little fairer for people who don't have that much time. As it is, the advantage is skewed towards people who have a lot of time and we don't want to penalize people who just don't have that option. </font>


This has nothing to do with fairness. This change is all about money, as most of the other new changes have been. Judging by the comments made by the players who will be most affected by this, it's a very big detriment that will force them to buy AP packs. I get that you're trying to spin this in a positive light, but everyone will be able to see right through it.

Each new change disappoints me further and further. This game really isn't what it once was.
terrierfancy
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ZOwey wrote:

<font color="#b402cf">Regarding Aging Points</font>
Click to display
<font color="#b402cf">The system did change slightly but it is still based on luck. Basically, we made it so that the odds are higher for the first several hundred horses (I don't have an exact number for you, but it is a large number of horses) and then the odds taper off the more horses you care for.

The vast majority of players never even get close to caring for 1000 horses in a day, therefore that system was more advantageous for people who have copious amounts of time to spend caring for that many horses.

For this reason, the change only reduces the number of aging points for a small percentage of players.

The idea is for newer players or players with less time who can't wake that many horses to still have a chance to collect Aging Points at a reasonable rate.

In that way, the new odds should actually make it easier for new players to build up a supply.

</font>


This is a change that is not to be taken lightly. Many older players rely on the roughly 150 ap through farming 1000 horses. These players will quickly notice this change and it will affect their games.

Especially myself, as with 150 ap per day I was able to do about 2 BLUPs per day (60 ap per blup = 120 and 30 extra ap as foal buffer). NOW I cannot do 2 BLUPs per day without my ap decreasing (which is not sustainable). Because of that I'll probably start to do 2 BLUPs every other day - meaning I'l be spending less time playing, and so will many other players who love bluping for their teams.

I understand that you're attempting to help the newer player, and yes this definitely will. But why must you favor the new ones while stabbing the loyal players in the back?

I'm deeply saddened by this change as it'll affect my game and so many others. And this all could easily be avoided if the odds were kept the same, just the chance of finding more ap at the begging increased.

This game is turning into a love hate relationship. Thanks.
banneros
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We realize that it may not feel very fair to the people who have been farming all 1000 horses and we'll be gathering feedback and checking logs to be sure that the adjustment is not unfair for anyone.

Please keep in mind that this change has not been in place for very long and it's still based on luck which means that you will get more AP some days when you are having good luck and less on days when you are not.

We'll be looking at the data as a set, instead of just individual experiences as those impressions are not always accurate over the long term.
zowey
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ZOwey wrote:

<font color="#b402cf">Regarding Aging Points</font>
Click to display
<font color="#b402cf">The system did change slightly but it is still based on luck. Basically, we made it so that the odds are higher for the first several hundred horses (I don't have an exact number for you, but it is a large number of horses) and then the odds taper off the more horses you care for.

The vast majority of players never even get close to caring for 1000 horses in a day, therefore that system was more advantageous for people who have copious amounts of time to spend caring for that many horses.

For this reason, the change only reduces the number of aging points for a small percentage of players.

The idea is for newer players or players with less time who can't wake that many horses to still have a chance to collect Aging Points at a reasonable rate.

In that way, the new odds should actually make it easier for new players to build up a supply.

</font>


That is laughable.

Click to display
I don't buy for even 5 minutes that this is supposed to be true. Because if that is what was really believed than there would have been an upfront and plain message on the news or in a change-log to everyone that this was being done and why. No one would have to have investigated this via contact support or the spoiler forum. This is just more of the underhanded nonsense that this game's becoming famous for, in an effort to get more people to spend passes on aging points. As I said, if the team could find a way to sell fodder for passes, I'd be none surprised it would be done. A new player doesn't need additional help finding aging points; they don't have the investment in the game that a long-term player has to even NEED that many aging points.

This is an obvious effort to further monetize competitive players and undermine the value of their time, because only competitive players have the need for aging points that requires an AP farm to begin with. A casual player is not farming for aging points. They don't need an advantage to find them, but a competitive player clearly does. I see all the way through this nonense. And if I'm wrong, and that's not what is happening PROVE IT.
isle esroh
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"I'm gonna repeat myself, why can't you keep the previous number of APs that could be collected in one day the same, and at the same time increase the odds for the first 600-700 horses?"

That would still favor players that have time over players who do not since it would likely be an increase in net AP for both new players and those who care for all 1000.

The idea is that the chance to get the AP is frontloaded so that the majority of the AP comes from the first several hundred. The amount should be *roughly* the same as it was before, just less from the later horses. We're going to monitor the situation. Adjusting the rates is not out of the question. We just ask that you spend some time with the new odds and give us some feedback.

As I said, we'll be monitoring the effect of this change to be sure it's not too detrimental to the players who cared for all 1000 every day.

The trend in games is to move away from mechanics that penalize players who do not have a lot of time to compete with those who do have that time.

zowey
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"And if I'm wrong, and that's not what is happening PROVE IT."

How would you like me to prove that to you?

Also, since this is a current change, there is no need to add spoiler tags.
zowey
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Please keep in mind that while we are glad to discuss this issue with players, we won't tolerate being called liars as that is discourteous. Just as we wouldn't let you say that to another player, it is not acceptable to say it to staff either.

We expect to be treated with the same respect that we demand for all players.

Thanks.


zowey
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I am aware that ap is still very much based on luck. However, based on my own personal records and the many other player's I've discussed this with (players do record the number of ap they earn per day - cause it determines how much you can blup w/o depleting your stash), everyone who farms 1000 horses find roughly 150 ap per day. This is a very visible trend based on our records.

When that trend suddenly drops to around 100 - well, you start to question. Even with luck still in mind. A 50 ap drop per day is big enough to not just be based on luck. That is why so many players are already upset- despite the fact that this change was just recently implemented.

If it maybe were 130 ap on one day, then yes that's close to the 150 average to be considered bad luck for that day. But a 50 ap drop (based on the average) is not luck. It's a manipulation of the odds, which now we know is for real.

Again - why can't the overall odds (150 ap per day) still remain the same after farming 1000 horses, but with a better chance of finding the ap within the first 100? This way it helps the new players and doesn't hurt the older ones. It doesn't make sense why you'd want to not do this.

I understand "fairness" of the time a player has is in question.... but when it come to anything in life, the more time you put into say a sport, a hobby, education, the more you get out of it. Players who do want to get more out of their game by farming the 1000 horses because they choose to, shouldn't be punished because other players don't have time to farm that many. This applies to other games. The more you play, the better you get or the more you earn.
banneros
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Why is howrse ripping us off? It's like you want your pass buyers to up and quit.

Why are the people that farm the whole 1000 being punished for doing exactly as they were told to get the APs

Sorry that some of us have the time to play this game. This game has become a joke.

Let's keep the APs farming situation, just an Idea default smiley ;)
vαleɴcια
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BannerOS wrote:

I am aware that ap is still very much based on luck. However, based on my own personal records and the many other player's I've discussed this with (players do record the number of ap they earn per day - cause it determines how much you can blup w/o depleting your stash), everyone who farms 1000 horses find roughly 150 ap per day. This is a very visible trend based on our records.

When that trend suddenly drops to around 100 - well, you start to question. Even with luck still in mind. A 50 ap drop per day is big enough to not just be based on luck. That is why so many players are already upset- despite the fact that this change was just recently implemented.

If it maybe were 130 ap on one day, then yes that's close to the 150 average to be considered bad luck for that day. But a 50 ap drop (based on the average) is not luck. It's a manipulation of the odds, which now we know is for real.

Again - why can't the overall odds (150 ap per day) still remain the same after farming 1000 horses, but with a better chance of finding the ap within the first 100? This way it helps the new players and doesn't hurt the older ones. It doesn't make sense why you'd want to not do this.

I understand "fairness" of the time a player has is in question.... but when it come to anything in life, the more time you put into say a sport, a hobby, education, the more you get out of it. Players who do want to get more out of their game by farming the 1000 horses because they choose to, shouldn't be punished because other players don't have time to farm that many. This applies to other games. The more you play, the better you get or the more you earn.


Thanks for this feedback. Again, we'll be looking at the effect of this as we go forward.
zowey
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ZOwey wrote:

That would still favor players that have time over players who do not since it would likely be an increase in net AP for both new players and those who care for all 1000.


I have a huge problem with this. For example, let's assume that Person A and Person B have the same title and work the same job for a company. Person A works 40 hours a week (standard fulltime job) and Person B works 10 hours a week (because they have other commitments). But they end up getting compensated the same amount of money at the end of the week. How is this fair to Person A that is willing to put in the extra 30 hours per week? Not everyone has time to play this game 24/7 I get that. I am a full-time college student myself and college comes before anything else, but when I take the two or so hours out of my day to farm why should I get less for more work? This game is getting more and more communist by the day, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but the truth hurts. Historically communism doesn't end very well as everyone ends up poor. Sorry the newer players don't have it easy, but the older players didn't have it easy either. I didn't know or understand how to blup until about 800 days of seniority, it took me a while to understand this game, newer players can take some time to get themselves on their feet too.

Life isn't fair and trying to make everyone equal is not the way to go, we should work for what we have and be compensated accordingly.
haley2160
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vαleɴcια wrote:

Why is howrse ripping us off? It's like you want your pass buyers to up and quit.

Why are the people that farm the whole 1000 being punished for doing exactly as they were told to get the APs

Sorry that some of us have the time to play this game. This game has become a joke.

Let's keep the APs farming situation, just an Idea default smiley ;)


A lot of these changes are part of a greater rebalancing that is being done across the entire game.

The intent is not to rip anyone off, however, all games need to change and be updated. As games age certain practices fall out of favor with players, sometimes that comes at a loss of revenue.

Players like to assume that changes are to increase profit where quite often they're to recoup losses from these changes in play style.

Whether we like it or not, all games need to make enough money to pay expenses. In fact, all businesses do. Trying to keep revenue steady means you occasionally have to make changes. Sometimes those changes are hard and sometimes they affect certain segments of the community more than others. This is just the truth of the matter.

However, the change was designed to be barely noticeable by most players so if that is not the case, it's possible that we need to take a look at it.

zowey
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ZOwey wrote:

"I'm gonna repeat myself, why can't you keep the previous number of APs that could be collected in one day the same, and at the same time increase the odds for the first 600-700 horses?"

<font color="#b402cf">That would still favor players that have time over players who do not since it would likely be an increase in net AP for both new players and those who care for all 1000.

The idea is that the chance to get the AP is frontloaded so that the majority of the AP comes from the first several hundred. The amount should be *roughly* the same as it was before, just less from the later horses. We're going to monitor the situation. Adjusting the rates is not out of the question. We just ask that you spend some time with the new odds and give us some feedback.

As I said, we'll be monitoring the effect of this change to be sure it's not too detrimental to the players who cared for all 1000 every day.

The trend in games is to move away from mechanics that penalize players who do not have a lot of time to compete with those who do have that time.

</font>


Ok then let’s do the same with less horses. Make the odds 1 out of 3 for the first 300 horses (100 APs) and then make it 1 in 15 for the next 700 (46 APs). Overall, more or less the same total, but would highly favor those with less time available, and still help those who want to farm 1000 by letting them get 150 APs
generallee
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By the way guys, keep it civil: convey your ideas with determination, but there’s no need to insult default smiley :)
generallee
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Haley2160 wrote:

I have a huge problem with this. For example, let's assume that Person A and Person B have the same title and work the same job for a company. Person A works 40 hours a week (standard fulltime job) and Person B works 10 hours a week (because they have other commitments). But they end up getting compensated the same amount of money at the end of the week. How is this fair to Person A that is willing to put in the extra 30 hours per week? Not everyone has time to play this game 24/7 I get that. I am a full-time college student myself and college comes before anything else, but when I take the two or so hours out of my day to farm why should I get less for more work? This game is getting more and more communist by the day, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but the truth hurts. Historically communism doesn't end very well as everyone ends up poor. Sorry the newer players don't have it easy, but the older players didn't have it easy either. I didn't know or understand how to blup until about 800 days of seniority, it took me a while to understand this game, newer players can take some time to get themselves on their feet too.

Life isn't fair and trying to make everyone equal is not the way to go, we should work for what we have and be compensated accordingly.


You're not getting less than someone who only farms a few hundred horses because you still have a chance (albeit smaller than before) to get more AP by farming more horses. If you farm 400 horses you have the exact same chance to get AP as anyone else who farms 400 horses. You can also continue on and farm the other 600 horses to get more AP than the person who only farms 400. It will just be at a reduced rate. But even with the reduced rate, you still have the opportunity to win more than the person who only farms 400.

So, it's really not punishing anyone for farming all 1000, there is a benefit to it, it's just less of a benefit than before.
zowey
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GeneralLee wrote:

By the way guys, keep it civil: convey your ideas with determination, but there’s no need to insult default smiley :)


Thank you very much for saying this.

I get that some of you are upset and I understand why. However, if it's something you would be worried to say to another player in a private message for fear of a sanction, then it's probably not something you should say to staff either.

Remember, there are no exceptions to our conduct rules just because you're mad.

Additionally, please remember that I'm not the one who made these changes. I am simply your liaison to the people who did. My job is to give you the information that I have and to collect feedback from the players about that information. We get a lot more done when players are civil.

Threats and nasty comments have never caused us to change our policy on anything, but good, honest, and respectful feedback absolutely has.

So, thank you for keeping this discussion civil.
zowey
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There's no Benefit to this! On a good day I can get 200+ APs and now I have gotten only 50 APs from almost 500 horses!!
This is the worst change that howrse could have done. Next time if there is a change, I suggest next time that howrse gives us a heads up before this is implemented.
If howrse is trying to crack down on Scripting, there are other ways to do it.
vαleɴcια
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ZOwey wrote:

So, it's really not punishing anyone for farming all 1000, there is a benefit to it, it's just less of a benefit than before.


But why are we making the benefit less? That's not fair to the people who actually put in the work. I am not one who personally farms 1000 per day as I don't have the time, but that doesn't mean I want to lessen the benefit for people that do farm the full 1000.

It might be better to develop a privilege like the Breeder's Wealth Privilege that lasts for the first 100 (maybe even more) days of seniority that allows players to have a higher percentage of finding aging points or even gives them aging points to boost their game. I'm all for giving someone a hand up, but almost equal compensation for noticeably different amounts of work is not okay and certainly insulting to the players who do have the time and spend it playing this game.
haley2160
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GeneralLee wrote:

By the way guys, keep it civil: convey your ideas with determination, but there’s no need to insult default smiley :)


I understand what you are saying. But also, Howrse does not listen to anything that the players tell them. With that comes great frustration.

So, overtime you become a little cranky. default smiley ;)
vαleɴcια
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